Translating Workflows from Mega Jobs to Smaller Ones
There is no one-size-fits-all solution for every construction project... In this episode of Built Different, co-hosts Grant Hagen and Brian Vizarreta sit down with Anthony Hartke, VDC Manager at Turner Construction, to discuss how tech solutions from big projects can be translated to smaller ones, and why every project should use some form of reality capture.
A lot of folks, they come to the conferences like this.
They see a cool new toy, the shiny object on the shelf.
They want to have it.
They got to have it.
Or, or your senior manager comes in and says, Hey, our competitor is using this
We got to use this to stay competitive.
It's like, no, you just need a shiny toy to market, which is its own value.
But it's operation.
Everything should be focused on the field.
How do we become better builders?
Whatever we use needs to make us better builders and be better for our clients.
Welcome to build different podcast featuring teams, technology and trendsetters
We're changing the way that we build.
I'm Grant Hagen and I'm Brian Visoreda and we welcome you to join a community
obsessed with questioning the status quo, creating cultures of innovation and
equipping everyone
with powerful tools to quite simply build different.
Well, welcome back to the build different podcast.
Join with Brian Visoreda.
I am your host, Grant Hagen.
Thank you all again for joining in with us for episode six.
If you are wondering why we are wearing some fun Hawaiian gear, if you're
tuning in and watching us,
we have some really fun stuff that we're going to be talking about in this
episode that relates to that.
So just really fun to be able to talk about that.
Anthony with Turner is going to be joining on with us for this episode.
Brian, what excites you about this conversation that we got to have with the
Anthony?
We really just got into it, you know, on how large projects adopt technology
differently than smaller projects
and, you know, what you can learn from both and what translates and just kind
of prescribing.
You know, there's never like a one size fits all solution for every single
project.
So it was just great to hear his lesson blared along the way.
Yeah, for sure.
And we hear that all the time from folks is like, how do I translate this stuff
from other companies
and from big jobs, small jobs?
And so that is the exact topic for this episode.
And so we just want to thank you again for tuning in with us.
A great conversation ahead.
Thank you all again so much for the feedback that you've given us so far.
We hope you enjoy the episode and we will see you next time.
We are joined with Anthony from Turner.
This is going to be a great conversation and also a good power over there,
Brian V.
We are going to have a lot of fun talking about some great stuff that Anthony's
doing with Turner construction.
We'll have you kind of intro give a little bit about your background, what you
do at Turner.
And then we're going to give them some good stuff.
We're really going to focus on how large scale projects can ultimately really
help and provide a ton of value
to maybe some smaller projects.
We've been talking with a lot of different customers here about just the
differences and job types
and job sizes and job personnel.
But what's the common thread that can connect them?
And we're going to talk about a little lessons learned and some things along
the way kind of on that camp.
But this is going to be a really good episode.
I'm really excited to talk through some of this stuff.
Turner's been a great customer for Drone and Point for many years.
Big customer on the instruction side side.
We'll talk a little bit about that at the end.
But without further ado, Anthony would love to hear a little bit about your
background,
how you kind of got into construction, what you're doing over at the Turner
land these days.
And yeah, sort of a deal.
Well, I will say I've got a pretty non traditional background and yet
traditional in some senses.
As a young high school kid, my passion actually was to go into musical theater
as a major.
Somewhere along the line, I got introduced to a construction management as a
degree in architecture.
I ended up going to the University of Cincinnati, Go Bearcats.
Come on.
When I got there, I was chasing the architectural engineering degree for a note
Found out that for an extra year of school, you can go for a dual major with
the construction management as well.
Oh, nice.
So co-ops and everything is part of that, which is fantastic.
Really encouraged co-op programs, paid internships while in college.
I joined the Army National Guard.
So spent 12 years in the guard background there was was IT signal systems,
military police.
So went through all that, kind of got deployed about three years into college,
spent two years over over in Germany.
NATO headquarters, seen back from my final three years, which is a good break
because I discovered some,
some good times in college this first three years.
Yeah. Yeah.
So kind of got my got my head back on my shoulders and kind of put myself back
on the on the right path.
This is my last three years.
Put the resume out there, got picked up by Turner and then as far as how it all
came together in college,
I had a degree certificate in geographic information systems, GIS.
So get to Turner.
They find out that, hey, this is a young field engineer for the college.
He knows how to use Revit.
Yeah.
Let's make him be this, this new BIM thing.
What's this?
Let's have him be the coordinator.
And this would have been what year?
2010.
So, so I became the BIM coordinator on the first BIM project within Humbus,
Ohio, which is where you're at.
Correct.
Correct. Correct. So we're still there.
Great, great place.
Lumb Ohio kind of took off from there.
Sorry to do in, through in BIM coordination.
They brought me out of the field and we back into the office, said, Hey, let's
put you in precon,
put you in estimating.
Let's figure how we can use models to help the estimating pre construction
process.
So did some sales support, did some quantity takeoff all super early before we
had all the,
all the bells and whistles and tools we have today, a lot of manual brute force
efforts.
And then kind of just slowly worked my way into the, the VDC manager role for
our higher
region and has been been sitting there ever since until about 2017.
That's when a big day center client came calling.
They wanted to push the envelope, wanted to go kind of full scale all out VDC
and BIM.
So they decided, Hey, who do we got in our office that can, that can really
take this on and run with it.
And they pulled me in.
We built the team, reality capture coordination, work in place tracking, kind
of building
what we've learned over the years and really built a really good team out there
Yeah.
Doing some really innovative stuff.
And you are selling your guys's team short, really good is very modest.
And it's an incredible team.
You guys, I've had a privilege to come out to the Columbus office and interact
with more of your guys's team.
Let's not forget to mention, I mean, to talk about fun, Brian's over here in
his Hawaiian shirt,
which, I mean, really, I'm so jealous.
That's why I keep bringing it up.
I got to go find one and steal one from it.
But I mean, you guys, your job office is called the beach house.
I mean, come on.
Like, how awesome is that?
Yeah, the culture on that project is really, it's second to none.
They've taken on of this one team approach, one team effort between the design
team, the client.
We have a co-located office space.
We decided we're going to be there for five, 10 years with all the work coming
through,
multiple builds, multiple data centers, about to break ground on another big
one.
So they decided why have a trailer complex.
Yeah.
We're going to be here for a while.
So they went ahead and designed a pre-instrumental building.
The client's got their section of the guitar section,
trade partners are in there as well, all working in the same space,
very collaborative.
It really is.
It feels like walking into a job side office of the future.
I mean, when you talk about how it's being collaborative and it's its own
separate space,
I mean, you can just, I don't know, when you walk into some buildings and some
offices,
you can just tell, like, man, this is a different vibe and a different feel,
which, man, we can do a whole other episode on that.
We were talking in a later episode about the value of a job side culture
and just how much that plays into it and how do you put a ROI on that.
And that's a great topic in its own self.
But what I'm curious, Anthony, to kind of get involved in and kind of hear your
perspective is,
and we hear this a lot, especially at construction conferences,
even just in general about the idea of larger jobs, big jobs.
Let's call them mega jobs just for clarity sake.
And when I could say mega jobs, I'm going to put them in the category of 750
million plus,
billion dollar plus projects, multi-year, more than three, four, five year type
jobs.
Oftentimes, those are data centers, stadiums, big, big jobs that have a long
tenure,
that how do those jobs help the smaller jobs at Turner?
I mean, and again, let me clarify, smaller jobs, let's just say anywhere in
that realm of under 100
million, under 75 million, those aren't in small jobs by any means, but they
definitely have a
smaller feel to them in comparison.
I really want to dive into lessons learned that you guys have had on the mega
jobs,
how that's translated and applied down to smaller jobs, and what ways you've
kind of
found some really key lessons learned in that process.
Because that's a big gap between those two types of projects.
And oftentimes, it's a gap between companies as well.
Like we're at conferences and we hear all these presentations, we're like, man,
that's not my company, it's not my job, it's not my type of project that I'm
working on.
And there's kind of an immediacy of, I'm just, I think that can't translate,
but that's not true.
I mean, you guys have turned, have proved how that can be, where you can share
that value.
That's the premise.
That's what I'm really curious to know, Brian, anything you want to add to that
No, I think you're kind of hit it on the head where, how are you using these
larger jobs to
learn on what you're going to do for across the company, like standardization?
Like, what are you looking at the entire company?
So our office is dealing with everything from your very small, small jobs,
which could run by half a person, a quarter a person, kind of run the project,
all the way up to a project in the multiple billions, where you can just
be a staff of 75 to 100 people on that project to give it a take.
So really what this allows us to do is it's created a, a pseudo R&D sandbox to
try.
I think we've got a client who, who wants to push the boundaries, wants to push
things forward.
They're very open to the idea of technology and using technology to change the
industry.
They want to be seen as a, as a leader of construction, a leader technology and
construction.
So they, they've worked with us when we find something that we think has value.
We'll, we'll pitch it up there and say, Hey, we think we got to spend a little
bit of money up
front. Can I get that little seed fund in there, a sweeten that pot to help
offset that cost,
to get that, that big thing, that high dollar value thing in there.
So we can start testing it, start trying it. We've got a use case. We've got an
ROI identified.
We got to prove it out. And the key there really is selling that initial ROI. A
lot of folks,
they come to the conferences like this, they see a cool new toy, the shiny
object on the shelf,
they want to have it. They got a heaven or, or your, your senior manager comes
in and says, Hey,
our competitor is using this. We got to use this to stay competitive. It's like
, no,
you just need a shiny toy to, to market, which is its own value, but it's
operation.
Everything should be focused on the field. How do we, how do we become better
builders?
Whatever we use needs to make us better builders and be better for our clients.
And that's really where this specific project has allowed us to kind of shine.
Did you anticipate the kind of sandbox approach that this project was going to
help in or did you
kind of fall into it or does it, does that make sense? I kind of fell into it.
Yeah. Like I said,
they were looking for somebody who can, who can help fulfill this client's
request. They're robust
requirements. I don't think anybody in the office in the region really
understood what it was going
to take. I don't think the client understood what they were asking for. I got
out there in
it was October of 2017, I remember the month and they said, Hey, the client
wants us to, to
coordinate the underground utilities for this site. And I said, okay, what,
what are we looking
at? What's our timeframe? Well, we're, we're starting to dig dirt in it. You
want me to
install all the utilities for the entire site? Yeah. And you're starting to
install your first
piece of utility today. We're three month, we're three months behind already,
three months behind.
So it was, it was a slog, got to get out of the ground, got to get moving, got
to just keep
picking away at it. So it was just me on this project. And then the client said
, Hey, we want to do
reality capture. And I said, what do you mean you want to do reality capture?
What does that mean?
It's like, we don't really know, but we're willing to pay for a scanner for the
project. And we want
you to do reality capture and do virtual reality while you're in. And that's
what they thought
reality capture was at the time. Grab a scanner. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. We talked a little bit about that with some other folks is like,
how do you describe what reality capture is? And yeah, you go.
And as we have learned, it is much more than just head go by a scanner. Yeah.
And involves multiple tools, multiple levels of scanners, multiple levels of
accuracy and precision
and software and, and a whole slew of things that it can be above and beyond
just get a scan.
Yeah, but you bring up a really good point, right? Like the best place to start
is with a problem
that you are trying to solve. And then you can prescribe what levels of
accuracy are going to
be necessary for that, right? Like, if you just want to communicate what an
above ceiling condition
looks like a photo could work. If you want to coordinate new mechanicals, you
're going to have
to scan, right? Yeah, it's, it's, it comes down to what level of information do
you need?
So in our case, we didn't really have a use case to, we didn't have a problem
to solve.
We had a, we had a technology and said, hey, go find a use for this.
And so we started looking at it and initially the client said, hey, we, we want
a digital
representation of our building, but we also want you to validate the accuracy
of the installation.
We want to make sure that, that all this money we're paying for coordination is
being
utilized to make use of, which is a change. It's a change to the industry. It's
a change by
trade contractors to understand what we're doing and to get them to buy into
the process. So we
kind of started working through some use cases and we're still to this day, we
're learning where
we now have, I think, three scanners on site in addition to the spot with a
scanner. But we've got,
we've got two total stations, we got GPS units. So we got a whole team of
people now, five,
five reality capture professionals working on our team up here.
I love how when I visited your guys's job, you had these like kind of almost
badges,
right above the different teams. And I love that the badge for your guys's team
was VDC
slash reality capture. Like, I think that just kind of speaks a lot to the
value that it is
with these other ideas of virtual designing construction. A question I asked
earlier to
some folks was, how do you, so client comes you, hey, we want to do reality
capture. We don't know
what it is. We don't know where it can be helpful. How do you educate them on
the different types of
reality? Like Brian mentioned it too, like, hey, based on accuracies and needs,
but like,
there's a whole gamut of what reality capture is from a 360 photo to a scanner
and everything
in between ground air, all that. How do you kind of go about that education
piece, not only internally
for folks to see that value, but then also externally to clients that are maybe
interested in it.
So so one thing we learn throughout the process is scanners, not always the
solution is not the
end all be all and what you're trying to validate. It all comes down to
validation. What are you
trying to value? What kind of what's the end goal of what you're trying to? If
you're trying to
capture massive amount of information or an entire space, multiple systems,
scanner, it's
fantastic. If you're trying to capture where is this this sewage line going in
the ground out
in the site in the middle of the 330 acre site, do you really need to scan it?
Or do you really
need to capture points at locations? Because that that concrete pipe is not
going to move or bend
halfway through the run or from the air. That's like, hey, I want to do this
across the entire
side. Exactly. So it's kind of it's a point to point kind of thing. You just
got to capture the
key points, the key changes directions, whether that's from the air from a
total station GPS,
whatever, and it's faster to do that. But you got to make sure the process is
in place to be
able to support that. And so it's trying to find the right tool. It's really
about what's your
problem, what's your outcome you're trying to achieve? And then it's okay, let
's take a step back.
What tool is most cost effective? What tool is the quickest to capture the
information
and to what level of accuracy you need? If your duck bank or your storm pipe is
going to be,
if your trade partners can't install it within 12 inches or six inches or two
inches to one inch,
why why rely on a tool that's going to give you one 16th inch of accuracy? You
don't need that
misnocision. And the best part about that is that's translatable billion dollar
job,
10 million dollar job. That should be the process on anything. I'm curious. Are
there
two or three things that stand out that have been the most translatable down to
smaller jobs?
You know, we've been talking about this a little bit, but like, what are kind
of the things that
rise up that you can think of? So proper photo documentation, things like in
wall photos.
We started off with the need for, hey, we're going to scan the in wall stuff.
It's like, well,
why do you scan the in wall stuff? Well, we've got to compare it to the model.
Well,
we're not modeling the one inch conduit in the wall, but it's just too much and
too small.
So we've got nothing to compare it against. So if we can't use the scan to
compare it against the
model, why are we spending the time to scan it? We've got to know where it's at
. Okay, well, if
we have a photo of that conduit and everything in the wall, and you have
reference points where you
can take the photo and align it to that wall in the field and say, okay,
between this point
and this point. Now I know where all the studs are at. I know a cavity that
that conduit's in.
Right. Yes, finder beep beep. There's my cavity. This is where I got it cut.
Yeah,
that's as much as you need. So everybody's got camera. You don't need a 360
camera.
You just need to have a 2D camera and everybody's got one in their pocket in
their phone now.
So by using location based photos and having a plan of capturing those photos
on a very rigid
and regimented basis, you can produce a map of photos of everything in the wall
. And now if you
got to go back and do rework, it's a great turnover deliverable for the client.
It takes minimal
effort because as contractors, we should be documenting our construction
progress document in the work.
Takes five seconds out in the field. Take that photo. If you take it in the
right place and take
it meticulously, you have a product that the client's going to value whether
they're buying it from
you or not. If you already have the system in place, you have that platform in
place,
you come out the hero the first time that fact, you're going to find something.
You're the hero
for your company when you find a leak and you're going to find that bite. Pre
ach that. That
is, couldn't be more true. So progress documentation, let's bucket that as like
, hey, easily transferable,
big job or small job. What other ones kind of come to mind? I would say that
drone
drone photography is fantastic because you can quickly capture information
about the site.
The frequency of it is the question mark about what you got to do. But on a lot
of projects,
even if you're doing a grading and paving of a parking lot, we used it for
documenting the
grading of a soccer field that we were doing kind of as a pro bono thing for a
client versus
having to go in and try to survey the topography, getting just enough
information.
Don't go way overboard. Don't go get your 16th inch of tolerance, but enough to
be to show
what that grade is going to be. And because you're doing that, you're already
capturing
weekly work in place. We fly once a week. So it's like, we're not reinventing
the wheel.
We're taking a process we've had before using a new technology that gives you
better,
more consistent, more accurate results. So drone photography to me in replacing
the construction progress photos, aerials. It's a slam dump on any project.
What are your thoughts? Your personal opinions, nothing representative
Turner's thoughts as a whole, on the drone deployment structure, say the
acquisition.
Where does that kind of go in your mental space? Where do you think there's
opportunity there?
It's funny. We were down here four weeks ago at another big industry conference
And I was chatting with some folks and we were talking about, I believed at
that time that
that the whole 360 photo documentation steer the whole
sphere. Like what you did there.
There you go. No pun intended. But pun well received.
It's right. It's at that inflection point where they're starting to get
industry adoption.
We're starting to see that plateau, that value proposition really being hit.
And
that's when the big companies come in and they start acquiring.
And I mentioned it to the instruction site reps that hey, you've got a really
good
terrestrial floor plan based platform that people just intuitively will use.
But we're doing
these other things. We're doing scans. We're doing a VR. We're doing aerials
stuff. It would
be great to be able to tie this stuff together. At the same time we were
talking drone deploy
and saying hey, you guys got a great aerial platform. But you're getting into
that
terrestrial photo realm and your interface just isn't that good for that kind
of stuff.
You're doing video walks but not static. I prefer the static over the video
walks,
higher quality imagery. I can get people to do the same thing very repetitively
. So
it'd be great if you just partnered up with somebody and then trying to
overhaul your entire
system. And lo and behold, I was not aware. But the conversation was happening
right in the back
end. It's as if you predicted this merge of these two companies.
Yeah. So it was it was kind of by surprise when the announcement was made. It
was not the
partnership I thought that was going to happen. But it's a really good
partnership,
especially around some of the more innovative developments that are happening.
Talk about that. Surprise in not the one that you thought was going to happen.
Curious to hear your thoughts on that. Honestly, I thought that RDS was going
to make the first
move. Wow. Okay. Cool. Just because they're moving into that space.
With recap and other reality capture platform. Exactly. They bought the wild,
brought VR integration into their BIMP 360 platform, the cloud based
documentation.
It just feels like there'd be it'd be a good space to have some kind of photo
documentation
much more to tie into it. Sure. No, that's great. I thought you were going to
answer that very
differently. So no, and yeah, I agree. I think that that is something which is
really interesting
to see for sure on the Procore and for sure on the Autodesk and of these two
platforms really
supporting reality capture in a way of like, hey, we obviously can iframe into
Procore,
we can do different things with Autodesk build in that platform to our
construction cloud.
Yeah. It is interesting to see some of that. I'm really curious to hear from
you on
you guys that have the benefit of being a drone employee customer and being a
instruction site customer. What would you want to tell a
instruction site customer about drone deploy? And then I would flip it off.
What do you want to
tell a drone deploy customer about instruction site? Because you guys have the
very unique
situation that you're in that you're very heavily invested in both platforms.
But we know that
that may not be the norm with other customers that may be coming at it from
just a instruction
site end of like drones. Why do I need that or drone deploy and saying, and I
don't know why
that's important. Give me some of your perspective around those types of
customers and the questions
that they should be encouraged by with you having usable platforms. Sure. I
would say that from the
drone deploy customer looking at instruction site and saying what is that for?
It is the
excitement of the current platform is the static 360 stationary 360 stationary
2D
in comparison to the model. I think those features is what really provides the
backbone
of instruction site as a as a platform. Yeah, that's great. And then
instruction site,
you should get excited about using drone deploy because you're already in the
world of 360 and
2D photos. And this allows you to get that high in the sky of the entire site.
To me,
it's a lot easier to tell to sell instruction site users on drone deploy
because she's taking
what they already know about the interior space and taking it out to the site
out of the air.
With a big interesting and we could not miss on this point, but I don't want to
use drones.
I don't want to own a drone. I don't want to start a drone program. Why should
I be excited
about driving a boy? So we to turn does not fly our own drones. It's a company
policy.
It comes down to a risk issue. The drone falls out of the sky for for no no
reason of our own.
It happens. Batteries can die. Falcons love punching drones out of the sky. It
happens.
I've seen it happen. Throw the clip of the Falcon video. Exactly. If you're
flying over top
and active work, which we shouldn't be, but if if a drone falls and hits
something, our insurance,
we are not aircraft operators. Our construction insurance policies don't cover
air strikes.
They don't cover aircraft crashing. If you hit a person, that's a bad day for
everybody,
including that person because I don't care. They're not coming after the
individual.
They're coming after the company. Insulating us. We've got big pockets, which
means we're a big
payout of that. So are you telling me that Turner doesn't fly a single drone
but uses drone deploy?
Correct. The way we do we get about that is we do have a drone policy and an
agreement with
drone deploy where we can request a flight and drone deploy will actually work
through their
network of drone pilots to provide that flight for us. This is what I want
people to hear.
I obviously know and have seen this, but this is where I think there's going to
be a big caveat
for folks of some instruction site users being, "I don't want to get into that
space." Or,
"I want to," but you're telling me I got to go get certified. You're telling me
I got to go get
equipment? You're telling me I got to go warn this other world that I'm so busy
on the inside?
Tell me about the excitement that you see for instruction site users and being
to tap into the
data on demand that Turner massively uses. Yeah, and again, this goes from big
projects to
small projects. On the big project, we've got a third-party pilot that we
contract with directly.
There are guys that fly week and week out. We hold their contract directly.
On a smaller project, you don't got the budget to do that, but we've got a set
fee structure of
60-minute flight costs X, say, 120-minute flight costs X. Within drone deploy.
So the whole ordering
system, ordering the flight, mapping out what the flight coverage area needs to
be, that's all done
by our users in the system. We hit the requests to get that drone demand
feature, and drone deploy
will get the pilot out there. They will get that flight going. The pilot takes
care of all that
information. We don't got to worry about it as a contractor. Our engineer, our
superintendent,
doesn't need to be a pilot. It doesn't need to have a license. The theme of
this episode is
big job, the small job. That translates, and you can do that same type of
experience that you
were used to on a big job down to a small job. We could throw up some
statistics and talk through
the amount of flights that Turner does on data on demand through drone deploy.
It's incredible.
I mean, you've obviously got to experience that. Tell me a little bit about
your thoughts.
So the growth, the ability to remove that roadblock of Turner, you can't fly a
drone. And we can say,
all right, you can't fly a drone, but here's the resource to go and get that
drone flight,
and having that standard pricing rate so we can plan in budget. There's nothing
worse than
seeing, I want to use a tool, but there's no money in the budget for it. So we
can have that
conversation in front of the budget for it. You've got so many flights to do,
and we'll push it out
there. In fact, I don't need to be the one to do all the work. It's just, hey,
here's the tool,
here's the platform. You want to flight? Here's what it comes to.
And it's almost, well, it's not almost, there's some data that could show it's
almost safer.
I mean, whereas almost more efficient, I mean, you could line up and name
anything along those
lines of why data on demand could be a really exciting thing for instruction
site users
to get excited about within a drone deploy. I just think the education piece
around it may not be
there. And I think that's why we're wanting to continue to promote talk, put
your voice out there
more than ours, which I mean, what you guys are the end user of the value that
it brings.
If a company is open to flying their own drones, they've got that option too.
So you kind of got
two three options. You can fly your own. You can bring your own contract to fly
for you,
or you can go through that drone deploy network. Yeah.
Get three options. Yeah. And at the end of the day, the unified reality capture
idea is still alive.
Big job, small job, doesn't matter. Man, really great stuff. We are in between
you and some drinks,
and you and having some fun here on the Expo Hall 4, but Anthony, super fun.
This is just, I think,
one of those opportunities to talk through relating big job to small job,
getting people excited about
the lessons learned that can be applied, Brian, anything you'd want to add as
we before we close up.
No, I'm just grateful that we can share this knowledge because very frequently
we hear from
people at smaller companies saying, I can't do this because I don't have those
type of budgets,
and they don't get to kind of get those first-hand lessons learned directly in
a scenario like this.
So thank you very much for doing that. No worries. We're happy to share what
the rising tide raises
all ships. So whatever we can do to push the industry forward, we're always
happy to step out
there, have those conversations. Anthony, this is super fun. Always enjoy
getting to spend time
with you guys, the Turner team talking through some of these things. And two,
to the listeners,
I hope this has become a helpful resource for you. I appreciate how open you
guys are about just
some of these challenges, the topic, just in general. Because I think, again,
you said it well,
rising tide brings all the ships up, and we really do want to help promote that
. Anthony,
great talking with you. Built different. We will see you on our next episode.
Make sure to subscribe to build different on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and
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